COP30 is just behind us and the outcomes of the 30th conference on climate change are to put it mildly, very mixed. Slow progress has been made, but in the end no major breakthroughs: no global agreements on deforestation and the phasing out of fossil fuels have been made, illustrating the slow advancement of effectively combating climate change. On top of that, the United States had no formal delegation present, while fossil-fuel lobbyists outnumbered the representatives of any single country.

Does this mean it is all doom and gloom? We don’t think so. Together with Sven Renon, Impact manager at Triodos Bank, we speak what the near future could hold for us. We discuss the proposal of some countries to create a pathway for phasing out fossil fuels. In 2026, Colombia will host, in collaboration with the Netherlands, a separate conference next year dedicated to shape this pathway. What potential does a ‘coalition of the willing’ have to accelerate the energy transition? We also reflect on the role of other agents; what can we as Triodos Bank, other financial institutions and you as a listener do to enhance the most important transition of our time?

Find out in this episode of Money for Change!

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us! 

On October 14th, Microsoft announced that it will end the free support for Windows 10. Yet, around 400 million computers still run on this operating system, and roughly half of them cannot be updated to Windows 11 due to outdated hardware. This is a clear example of the phenomenon planned obsolescence; a business strategy where products are intentionally designed with a limited lifespan, forcing consumers to buy replacements or upgrades.

Ironically, this obvious case of planned obsolescence coincided with International E-Waste Day, an annual event dedicated to raising awareness about the growing problem of electronic waste. In this episode of Money for Change we reflect with Matija Kajic, sustainability researcher at Triodos Bank, on the broader negative impact planned obsolescence has on our society and the deeper issue it reveals in our economic system; the addiction to limitless growth.

We also explore what can be done to address this challenge, for example by advocating for legislation through initiatives like the Right to Repair and the push for corporate transparency to report about the lifespans of their products. Furthermore, we take a critical perspective by examining the difficulties of building a strong business case based on circularity and repairability

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Mark covers questions across a wide range of topics, including executive pay, business banking, community energy projects, and what prompted his decision to make the leap to a values-based bank. We hope you enjoy getting to know Mark better, and our thanks to the UK customers who submitted questions that helped shaped the questions and themes.

To find out more about Triodos Bank UK visit: www.triodos.co.uk

Or follow us on social media at:

www.instagram.com/triodosuk

https://www.linkedin.com/company/triodos-bank

www.facebook.com/triodosbankuk

Thanks for listening! 

Values-based banks has gained momentum over the past decade as more financial institutions put ethics, transparency, and social impact at core of their business models.Yet, despite this growth, it represents still a relatively small part of global finance and the member banks of the Global Alliance for Banking on Values (GABV, are often not the biggest players in their market. Why is that the case? And does the role of values-based banks differ in emerging economies? We discuss it today with Martin Rohner, executive director of the GABV, and Hans Stegeman, representing Triodos Bank as one of the pioneers of GABV.

We end by taking a look into the future; what are the goals for the GABV in the next decade? And how would the future look like if all mainstream banks adopt the principles of values-based banking? Tune in for this conversation about the future of money, values and systemic change!

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Each episode, we will dive into a specific topic that is relevant for answering this question. Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist, is a recurring guest in the show.

In today’s episode, we’ll talk about the current state of the Arctic, a region which is known for its vital function within the Earth’s ecosystem, its unique wildlife and is inhabited by various indigenous communities. However, economic exploitation has put the Arctic under pressure, in particular by rare earth mining and trade routes that cut directly through ice-covered waters.

These activities create severe environmental risks, which makes it necessary to take measures that safeguard the Arctic Ocean and its surrounding ice caps. One such initiative is the Arctic Oceans Pledge, a voluntary commitment by companies to avoid using the sea-ice passageways in their global supply chains.

Joining us is Alex Shahbazi, Senior Manager Artic Programs at Ocean Conservancy, to discuss the role of money in the protection of the Central Arctic Ocean. As in our previous English episode, we critically examine the impact of voluntary corporate pledges. How effective are they in realizing a transition to a sustainable economy? And how well are the voices and interests of Indigenous Arctic communities meaningfully represented?

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Alex Shahbazi

Each episode, we will dive into a specific topic that is relevant for answering this question. Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist, is a recurring guest in the show.

Within the financial sector, various mechanisms can be used to help accelerate the transition to a sustainable future. These vary from mandatory regulations to voluntary pledges. However, geopolitical influences are weakening these initiatives to move the financial sector towards sustainable activities.

This raises the question: Without mandatory governmental actions will the financial sector take meaningful voluntary action? We discuss these important questions with Bevis Watts, former CEO of Triodos Bank UK, to figure out what should be done to fundamentally change the financial sector.

Emma and Hans also brought some interesting news items to the table. This time covering the extreme climate related events in Switzerland and India, structural underestimation of the world population and its implications and Texas’ removal of Blackrock from their investment blacklist.

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Bevis Watts

Each episode, we will dive into a specific topic that is relevant for answering this question. Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist, is a recurring guest in the show.

As we near the end of May, many European countries have already had their Earth Overshoot Day. This means that if everyone lived like a person from, for example, the United Kingdom, we would have exhausted all of the Earth's available natural resources for the year. Part of the solution to reducing our consumption of natural resources and push Overshoot Day to later in the year, is financing the restoration and conservation of nature.

Nature based solutions are initiatives aimed at restoring, enhancing or protecting ecosystems by changing the intended use of the land. For example, reforestation projects on land which was previously used for agricultural purposes can create positive outcomes for the biodiversity and the storage of carbon. While the environmental benefits are clear, creating viable revenue models for these public goods remains a major challenge.

Together with our colleague and Nature-based Solutions expert Simon Scholl, we’ll tackle the complex question; Can financing nature help protect the wild places on earth, or are we chasing a fantasy by commodifying it?

We kick off this episode by discussing some worrying news about how our global economy is becoming less circular, the (not so) green investment funds in Europe and the downgraded credit score of the United States.

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Simon Scholl

Each episode, we will dive into a specific topic that is relevant for answering this question. Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist, is a recurring guest in the show.

When assessing the societal value of a business, we should not only consider its net profit but also its so called ‘externalities’. In this sense, externalities can be explained as the unintended side-effects for people and planet created by business activities. However, it can be challenging to quantify these externalities. For example, how can you put a price tag on the eroding biodiversity of a region? One way of doing this is by ‘monetizing’ the environmental and social impact of activities. With monetization we can put a monetary term on the cost or the benefit that a certain activity has on our society. This can be done with negative externalities like air pollution, but also positive externalities like wellbeing and social connectedness can be monetized. In this podcast, we chat with Megan Roux, manager at the Impact Institute, about examples on how we’re currently putting economic values on externalities. Next to this, we also take a bit more critical perspective. While including externalities in our economic calculations is a step forward, it bears the risk of oversimplifying complex issues. For instance, can the negative environmental effects of the fossil fuel industry stay justified as long as they make high enough profit to offset the damage?

Just as any other week, Hans has brought some very interesting news as well. In the beginning of today’s episode, we’ll also discuss current developments regarding climate resolutions, put a bright perspective on the current state of Europe and talk about the public support for climate change policy.

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Megan Roux

Each episode, we will dive into a specific topic that is relevant for answering this question. It can be about creating affordable housing, making the care sector more inclusive or financing nature conservation. Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist, is a recurring guest in the show.

New EU legislation has now mandated that producers of electronic devices must repair their products for a reasonable price after the legal warranty period has expired. A supporter of this law? The Right to Repair Coalition, an initiative that advocates for legislation and directives that try to promote the repairing of products on both the producer as consumer side. This legislation is crucial, as the right to repair is a key driver for advancing a circular economy. However, the resistance of manufacturers, alongside economic considerations, poses significant challenges to this important shift. In this episode we’ll discuss the effectiveness of Right to Repair Legislation with Cristian Ganapini, coordinator of the coalition. Together with Hans we’ll also dive into the core question of our podcast; what role does money play in all of this?

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Emma de Leeuws

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Cristina Ganapini

Each episode, we will dive into specific topic that is relevant for answering this question. It can be about creating affordable housing, making the care sector more inclusive or financing nature conservation. Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist, is a recurring guest in the show.

A topic that has gained much attention in recent years - and in the last few weeks due to a case in the Netherlands – is the fact that court cases against governments and corporates to enforce climate action are on the rise. By now, hundreds of court cases, often filed by NGO’s and groups of citizens, are being processed by national and international courts in different stages. Some cases are won, some are lost. Three weeks ago, Greenpeace won a court case that is meant to enforce the Dutch government to abide by its own law regarding nature protection. The key question here is whether these court cases help to accelerate climate action, or that they may also be an increasing source of climate hesitance, forming even an obstacle to the climate transition. In this episode we’ll discuss this topic with Eefje de Kroon, a legal expert and lead campaigner at Greenpeace, involved in several court cases.

At the end of the episode, Hans will share his thoughts on the recent trend of large companies pulling back from their sustainability commitments, a move that could signal the end of what we call ‘green capitalism’

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Sanne van Keulen

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Eefje de Kroon

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

This week, we welcome Tim Crijns, Fund Manager of Triodos Microfinance Fund, to discuss how targeted financial support can create innovative pathways for adaptation and mitigation in the face of climate challenges. With insights from Hans. we explore the pressing question: How can microfinance be a game-changer for those most affected by climate injustice? We shine a light on the transformative power of microfinance in combating climate change, particularly in developing nations that disproportionately bear its burdens. Discover how small loans can empower entrepreneurs, support climate resilience, and drive sustainable solutions in emerging economies.

The episode will be concluded by Hans’ news items of this week where you will hear Hans draw parallels between current AI development and the Space Race, provoking Ernst to update one of history’s most famous quotes…

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change 

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Tim Crijns

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Link to AEX Futureproof Index Report; https://static1.squarespace.com/static/670038036fca3f6e87032aca/t/67a4f9e05792ac4ac0b597cc/1738865132882/AEX+INDEX+REPORT.pdf 

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

In the episode of this week, we’re going to discuss who is better off: US citizens or EU citizens? Conventionally economists might look at GDP per capita numbers and conclude that US citizens are on average better off than EU citizens. Yet, GDP fails to take into account some of the aspects that matter. Beyond GDP is the movement that tries to correct these shortcomings. Together with Annegeke Jansen, PhD candidate at the WISE Horizons project in Leiden, we’re going to examine the various dimensions of Beyond GDP. You will find out where citizens live healthier, where they are safer and where most ecological damage is done. We end by discussing what policymakers should do differently from a Beyond GDP perspective.

The episode will be concluded by Hans’ news items of this week where you will hear Hans draw parallels between current AI development and the Space Race, provoking Ernst to update one of history’s most famous quotes…

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Ernst Hobma

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Annegeke Jansen

Note: In the episode Hans and Ernst say that the median income in the US is lower than in the EU, but this is incorrect. While the average income of the bottom 50% of income earners is lower in the US, the median income is higher than in the EU. This shows that inequality of income within the bottom 50% of income earners is greater in the US than in the EU.

For suggestions, comments or questions, please use the contact form on this page: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

Since the founding of Triodos Bank, we have maintained a clear stance on investing in weapons: we simply do not invest in weapons, and we believe the entire private sector should refrain from doing so. However, in recent years conflict has intensified in various parts of the world with with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the outbursts of violence in Sudan, Gaza and Lebanon. A dditionally, the newly inaugurated president of the United States Additionally, the newly inaugurated president of the United States has made war threat in relation to Greenland and Panama. In l ight of these developments, we have invited Daan Spaangaren, senior investment strategist at PME (the pension fund for the metal high-tech sector) as guest to discuss investing in weapons. PME takes a different view on investing in weapons from Triodos. We’ll discuss the ethical and economic considerations involved in investing in weapons. And of course deal with the question; should private financial institutions invest in weapons?

Enjoy listening to this episode of Money for Change and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Host: Sanne van Keulen

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Daan Spaangaren

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Triodos’ position towards weapon investments explained; https://www.triodos.co.uk/articles/2024/why-the-financial-sector-should-never-invest-in-weapons#:~:text=Triodos%20Bank%20does%20not%20invest%20in%20weapons%2C%20never,why%20investing%20in%20weapons%20should%20not%20become%20normal 

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

If you follow our socials you probably haven seen our social tipping point research passing by. Social tipping points refer to moments of relatively small changes in our behavior that can lead to a significant shift in the embedded norms of our system. Our study has found that the social tipping points regarding our five transition themes are mostly closer than we think. Simply put; many Dutch people want change, and quite a few people are already trying to bring about this change as well. In this episode we will analyze and discuss the most important findings with professor of socio-economic transitions Derk Loorbach at the office of the Dutch Research Institute For Transition. Together we’ll explore what proportion of society is needed to achieve our ‘social tipping points’ and how the institutional resistance that we see in politics amongst others can be interpreted as a sign of us actually coming closer to these tipping points.

Enjoy listening to this special episode of Money for Change and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Host: Ernst Hobma

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Derk Loorbach

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Press release on Social Tipping Points research (Dutch); https://www.triodos.nl/persberichten/2025/250102-kantelpunten-voor-cruciale-veranderingen-binnen-handbereik#nieuwe-economie

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

In the episode of this week, we’re going to discuss the subject of wealth inequality, an issue that is widely recognized as problematic. Wealth inequality has proven to harm social cohesion, hinder social mobility and creates an ecological problem when the lifestyles of the ultra-wealthy exceed our planet’s environmental limits. Furthermore, wealth often buys political power, undermining democracies. Therefore, rising wealth inequality is an obstacle to just sustainability transitions. Together with Wouter Leenders, PHD candidate at the University of California at Berkely, we’re going to examine the various dimensions of this issue and discuss what we can actively do to tackle it.

The episode will be concluded by Hans’ two news items of this week which are closely related to the subject of today; the record-breaking global warming of last year and the striking statistic of how long it took the richest people to burn through their carbon budget for 2025.

Enjoy listening and don’t forget to rate & follow us!

Host: Ernst Hobma

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Wouter Leenders

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage:

https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change 

In this episode Sanne and Hans are joined by Adam Kybird, fund manager of Triodos Food Transition Europe Fund. Together, they discuss how organic agriculture might become the norm, what this would mean for food affordability, and how organic relates to regenerative agriculture. 

You will hear how much of their income people used to spend on food, and whether true pricing could solve all our problems in one go. Towards the end of the episode, you can hear Adam strategize which organic products could replace their non-organic counterparts first. Hans explains why the whole world could actually eat organic, as long as diets are changed and food waste is minimized accordingly.

Hans concludes this first episode of the year with some uplifting news from our own research on social tipping points in the Netherlands (you can find the link in Dutch below).

Have fun listening and don’t forget to follow and rate us on your favourite podcast platform!

Host: Sanne van Keulen

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Adam Kybird

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage:

https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Tipping points outlook (Dutch): https://www.triodos.nl/persberichten/2025/250102-kantelpunten-voor-cruciale-veranderingen-binnen-handbereik

This episode we're keeping it closer to home by diving into one of the core activities of the Impact & Economics department: measuring impact. Together with our colleague Sven Renon, we explore the different facets of impact measurement, illustrating our discussion with practical examples.

Hans kicks off the conversation by taking us through the history of Triodos' impact management over the past 44 years. We discuss the various types of impact that can be measured and how this is applied in practice in the real world. To wrap up, we emphasize the importance of moving beyond simply minimizing negative impact and instead focusing on creating a positive change in the world.

Hans concludes this final episode of the year with some uplifting news regarding the United Nations' latest designations for 2025.

Have fun listening and don’t forget to follow and rate us on your favourite podcast platform!

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Sven Renon 

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage:
https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

More information on Triodos Bank's approach to impact: https://www.triodos.com/en/impact-vision 

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

Today’s episode will cover the subject on alternative- business models and funding methods. Triodos Bank was founded with the purpose of creating positive change in society by making sure money flows in the right direction. However, the mainstream business models and funding methods do not always align with the needs of society and the challenges we’re facing in the coming decades. What can we do to re-invent or re-shape our traditional business models and what different forms of alternative funding could support these business models? Together with Gijsbert Koren, one of the crowdfunding pioneers in the Netherlands and expert on steward-ownership, we're going to delve into these questions.

As usual, Hans will share a news item for us to reflect on, with this episode featuring his insights on this year’s ‘Black Friday’ mania

Host: Sanne van Keulen

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Gijsbert Koren

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage: https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change 

Triodos UK crowdfunding platform; https://www.triodos.co.uk/faq/what-is-the-crowdfunding-platform-by-triodos-bank?id=e4a90394a274 

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

In this episode, we explore the profound challenges and opportunities posed by our aging population. As healthcare systems face unprecedented demand, we discuss how innovative care models and financing are stepping up to meet this shift. To help us unpack these complex dynamics, we’re joined by Mavric Webbstock, head of the Wellbeing Transition at Triodos Bank UK. An expert in financing healthcare facilities for elderly age groups, he shares insights on how financing can serve the goal of providing people with the highest quality of life for the longest period of time, which changes the mindset of how we perceive elderly care and life more generally.

Hans Stegeman also provides us with a news update and his perspective on the result of the Climate Conference (COP 29) that wrapped up this weekend.

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest; Hans Stegeman

Guest; Mavric Webbstock

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage:
https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change
 

Graph on health expenditure per capita and life expectancy: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-health-expenditure 

Fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty; https://www.triodos.com/en/fossil-fuel-non-proliferation-treaty 

Welcome to Money for Change, a brand-new podcast from Triodos Bank! In this weekly podcast, the Impact & Economics team will share insights and challenges related to our core question: how can we transition to a more balanced and just world?

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

Today we dive into the 29th conference on climate change which is currently underway in Baku. As the current conference is often referred to as the ‘Finance Cop’, it is self-evident that it has our special attention. To help us navigate the latest developments, we’re joined by Hilde Stroot, climate justice expert at Oxfam Novib, who is reporting live from the conference. She’ll share the latest insights from Baku and give us an update on what’s been happening. Furthermore, we’ll explore the concept of climate finance by discussing what it is and who we believe to be responsible for providing the billions of dollars needed to address the climate crisis. We’ll look at the different types of funding, where the money is actually going and the dynamics between developed nations and vulnerable countries that need to be supported.

Hans will elaborate on the subject by giving some hopeful news which functions as an example of how we can fund money for climate change in the future.

Have fun listening and don’t forget to follow and rate us on your favourite podcast platform!

Co-hosts: Ernst Hobma & Hans Stegeman

Guest: Hilde Stroot

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage:
https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change

Hans’ hopeful news item; https://globalsolidaritylevies.org/scaling-solidarity-progress-on-global-solidarity-levies-report-released/

Each episode, we’ll be joined by Hans Stegeman, Triodos Bank’s Chief Economist. Together, we’ll dive into various topics and current affairs related to this overarching question, exploring ways in which these necessary changes might be realized.

In this episode, we will discuss COP16 – the 16th Conference on the Convention on Biological Diversity, which was held in Colombia. We will address whether COP16 can actually safeguard biodiversity or if more is needed. Furthermore in today’s episode; why is biodiversity so important in the first place? And is there a possibility for a more integrated policy towards ecological depletion?

To top it off, Hans Stegeman brings us some hopeful news.

Host: Emma de Leeuw

Fixed guest: Hans Stegeman

Guest: Pjotr Tjallema

If you have any comments or questions about this episode, feel free to contact us using the form on our webpage:
https://www.triodos.com/en/podcasts/money-for-change